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Florida House Set To Debate Proposal To Link Teacher Pay To Student Performance
April 4, 2010
Florida House members will get their chance next week to debate at length a controversial education reform measure that would link teacher pay raises to student performance on standardized tests.
And public school teachers will be packing the room in protest of the legislation.
The measure (HB 7189, SB 6) has turned into an ugly source of controversy, pitting Republican lawmakers against the teachers’ union in a fight over how educators should be paid. Proponents contend that teachers should be compensated based largely on results produced. Teachers say that is already the case and that the bill unfairly targets them by not taking into account external factors that could affect a student’s performance on test day.
The House Education Policy Council has scheduled a meeting for Monday to take testimony on two pieces of legislation: HB 7189 on merit pay and HB 7053, which requires students to take more difficult classes to graduate high school. But the bulk of the day will be spent on the merit pay bill.
The legislation, already approved by the Senate, would link teacher pay in part to student learning gains, create end-of-course exams on a district level basis and essentially eliminate any sort of tenure program for new teachers. Proponents of the measure say it will weed out the bad apples in the teaching profession while rewarding good teachers with higher pay.
“We need to make sure we’re rewarding our best teachers,” Education Policy Council Chair Will Weatherford, R-Wesley Chapel, told the News Service last month. “We have so many great teachers in the state of Florida and we’ve got to find creative ways to reward them.”
But it has also created outrage among public school officials. A representative of the school board association told senators last month that the plan has “done more to damage morale than anything I’ve seen in a long time” and the teachers’ union bemoaned it was shut out of negotiations.
A previous House meeting on the bill evolved into chaos when a vote was taken without hearing amendments from Democrats and allowing few teachers to testify. Rep. Marty Kiar,D-Davie, called the meeting a “sham” and Rep. Dwight Bullard, D-Miami, referred to it as a “miscarriage of justice.”
In response, the House Education Policy Council, the bill’s final stop before it goes before the entire House, scheduled eight hours for teachers and others to air their concerns about the bill on Monday.
Teachers have flooded lawmakers’ offices with emails, letters and phone calls. A spokeswoman for Senate President Jeff Atwater said the President had also received about 30 voice mails on the issue from students during the school day over the past few weeks.
One student, a junior at Park Vista High School in Palm Beach County, wrote Atwater a handwritten letter saying that basing salaries on test scores “is beyond ridiculous.”
“I believe that teachers are there to teach students and actually educate them, not spend 3/4 of the school year preparing for one test,” she wrote.
The Florida Education Association has also launched a Facebook group called NO Tallahassee Takeover and an accompanying Twitter feed to rally support against the legislation. It has also released a TV and radio spot to run in select markets. A spokesman for the FEA wouldn’t release how much the media spots cost or how long they would air.
“It will run as long as we think is necessary,” said FEA spokesman Mark Pudlow.
Some education advocates have warned that the legislation could drive teachers away from the state and that it does not take into account circumstances beyond a teacher’s control like socioeconomic factors, natural disasters like a hurricane or illness. Sen. Thad Altman, R-Viera, had proposed an amendment during the Senate debate to address that issue but withdrew it, saying he simply didn’t have the votes. Kiar has proposed an identical change to the House version.
Daniel W. Fortner, Sr., a teacher at Booker Middle School in Sarasota, wrote Atwater, Sen. John Thrasher, R-St. Augustine, who sponsored the Senate bill, and Sen. Nancy Detert, R-Venice, saying he fears that even if he does earn merit pay, his potential for future earnings would be cut under the proposal.
“Unfortunately my family and I have come to the conclusion that, should the bill pass, we will move to another state,” Fortner wrote. “One that appreciates teachers and is willing to compensate them accordingly.”
Proponents of the bill will likely be out in force at the committee meeting as well.
The Associated Industries of Florida sent out a release Friday morning attacking the FEA for its opposition to the legislation. And the Florida Chamber of Commerce has also been a big supporter of the proposal.
“It’s time to institute a better process that results in better-prepared students and we can affect the greatest impact by changing how we evaluate and reward our teachers,” said Barney Bishop, AIF President. “Being evaluated based on the results produced and rewarded for a job well-done with additional compensation are not anomalous methods for determining employment status or pay.”
The Foundation for Florida’s Future, a Jeb Bush-backed think tank on education, has also been pushing the legislation. Bush, who ran against the FEA-backed gubernatorial candidate Bill McBride in 2006, has long been a proponent of merit pay for teachers.
By Kathleen Haughney, News Service Florida for NorthEscambia.com
Comments
23 Responses to “Florida House Set To Debate Proposal To Link Teacher Pay To Student Performance”
Jaime Escalante died a little over a week ago.
He did not base his expectations of his students on their background, home environment, previous educational failure, or anything else like that.
He based his expectations of them on the fact that if you take those who believe even that they are trapped in a cycle of failure from which there is no escape, expect excellence from them, and then prove that you care about them as you work to help them to accomplish excellence, you break the cycle of failure and open up a whole new world of possibility.
His students rose to his expectations, and passed the AP Calculus exam. College-level calculus being learned by the students at a school in which the kids were so disadvantaged, they couldn’t be expected to learn basic algebra. At least, that’s what the school administration told him.
School politics finally became too much for Escalante, and he and others who were involved with his program moved on. The school has since drifted back into mediocrity.
“If he wants to teach us that bad, we can learn.”
SW,
You are wrong, you do have a right to voice your input and it is appreciated. I’m glad that you have an opinion on this issue. Too many people are sitting silently and watching thinking it is not their problem. This is an issue that affects everyone in this state. Don’t worry, I have thick skin and can take any criticism that is thrown my way. Unfortunately, that is a requirement when you are an educator. I agree with you that teachers can only be evaluated by their performance and what students learn is our biggest responsibility. How we get to the point of actual understanding and comprehension that will lead to these student gains is another issue. Shouldn’t that be a factor also in our evaluations? Teaching strictly from a textbook and worksheets doesn’t work for every student or teacher for that matter. When this happens, all you get is students who may or may not be able to pass a test, and wind up with knowledge that fades because it isn’t relevant to their individual goals in life or their personal situation. And you are right again about the fact that I don’t appreciate someone who doesn’t deserve it, enjoying the fruits of my labor. SB6 in it’s current form is not the answer. According to members of the House, there will be no amendments allowed to the bill before it’s passage. Amendments to this bill that allow us to keep our educational experience, continue being recognized for professional development, and holds principals/adinistrators more accountable for the evaluations that they administer are just a few of the aspects that would make this bill more palatable to many of us. While I understand that is is a constitutional issue regarding unions, they must be willing to concede some of their control. Unions can be a good thing if they are ran properly. I feel that one of the reasons we are in this mess is the universal protection that unions offer, even to the “bad” teachers. Weeding out “bad” teachers shouldn’t punish those of us who have worked diligently to ensure we have the experience and knowledge to make our students successful. I know that I personally feel as if a little of the wind has been taken out of my sails. Very few people will ever understand or appreciate the amount of time and effort that those of us who love our professions put into it. How is it possible that a group of leaders, that we elected, can be so clueless? The answer to that is, they don’t see what we do everyday or the circumstances that come with each of our students. Gains that are achieved are not always those that are can be determined by a test. It is often little things that matter the most. I appreciate the fact that you are involved in this discussion. Maybe we can all take it a step forward and come up with solutions..if it’s not too late.
“Too often we give children answers to remember rather than problems to solve.”
Robert Lewin
>B
You’re right, I am not a teacher, therefore I have no right to have any input, here. I am just a member of the dumb masses who must just submit to those who are obviously superior.
Status Quo.
But if the system in place isn’t working or being used properly, it isn’t a good system and should be replaced. How else can teachers be evaluated but by their performance; aren’t the results in the students? I recall once a competency exam being proposed and teachers fought it. It seems that any time an evaluation method to more equitably grade teachers comes out, it is always a resounding ‘NO’ from the teachers or their union. If this one won’t work and the one in place isn’t working what is the alternative?
As I have said repeatedly, I am not against good teachers, it’s the bad ones who need to be replaced. You sound like one of the good ones and I don’t mean to be disrespectful to the good and dedicated professionals out there. However, is it right for an average or below average teacher to enjoy the fruits of your labors?
To David Huie Green,
I couldn’t agree with you more. The cure is hurting more than it is helping.
SW,
You don’t seem to be be reading and understanding anything that is being presented here. No one is against evaluations or accountability for teachers!!! In fact, we welcome it! Just don’t judge us based on what a student scores on a test. There is a system in place that would work wonders if it is used properly! And yes, I am screaming NO about this bill at the top of my lungs because it does nothing to address the real issue of how to get rid of the “BAD” teachers who already have tenure! By the way, what is your solution to the current system…it’s my guess that you don’t have a clue what would work. I am a teacher and I agree that the union needs to have a little less influence. I love my job and I do it well. I pursue every opportunity to learn something new that will benefit my students. It is so tiring to hear the same old arguments about how “good” teachers have it. How would you feel if your employer told you ,”I know that you have been doing this job for 10 years, have earned a Master’s degree in your own time and paid for it out of your pocket, work 10 hours a day, make sure your students are fed and clothed, and volunteer for two committees after school. That no longer matters. If your students, who by the way are ESE, don’t score well enough on this new test, you are going to be let go. Oh and by the way, you will lose your teaching certificate too. I’m sorry, but these politicians told us that your experience no longer matters to them. After all, they know best. Good luck in your future endeavors.”
Everyone needs to get a grip and stop blaming teachers for the systems many faults!
Privately funded teachers are a different issue, too. They are held totally accountable by their financiers and their governing structure.
But I agree, some type of evaluating is needed. This is as good as any; I haven’t heard anyone present a better idea on here; all everyone can seem to say is ‘no’ it won’t work.
I would still go back and address tenure and unions. I, for one, do not believe that any public employee should be unionized. There should be some sort of civil service program to protect them from politics, however.
REGARDING:
“I still maintain that comparing public employees to private employees when discussing salaries and compensation is illogical and has no merit.”
Whereas I figure the value of a job is shown by the result if done improperly. Another factor which kicks in is: How many could do it just as well and how much are they happy to do it for?
Quite often people compare compensation by skewed views. Some will look only at money, some will looke at benefits, some will look at pressure of the job or location.
For that matter, teachers can be publicly funded or privately, just as doctors are so again, we’re still talking fruit even if the fruits differ.
By the way, I’m not for it or against it, just considering some things which I believe should be considered as opposed to raw numbers. For example in the later string, Wes mentions sometimes firefighters fail to save a house but that does not immediately mean he failed in his job. Sometimes the house burns down and nobody reports it until the next day.
It’s not anybody’s fault, simply the way the world is. If he wasn’t ready to go when called or didn’t know his job when called upon to do it or if he hadn’t maintained his equipment and kept it in place as he should, THEN it would be his fault.
If the fault lay with building construction or wiring, you want to fix THAT not just blame the firefighter after the fact.
I think we all want a system of testing results based on opportunity and responsibility.
David for dampening fires, not children (well, sometimes them too)
David,
You’re right, you didn’t say anything about ’status quo’, I did.
It seems that everyone is against this program, but no one has tossed out a better one. I just seems that everyone is against any kind of evaluating of teachers. No system is going to be perfect on this non-perfect world. It just seems as if it is too easy to say ‘no’ instead of providing alternatives.
I still maintain that comparing public employees to private employees when discussing salaries and compensation is illogical and has no merit.
REGARDING:
“Of course, eliminating unions, replacing the politicians at the local and state level on school boards, and eliminating the federal interference would go a long way, too.”
The best way to eliminate unions is to make them irrelevant. To do that you need to act in a manner which would convince people they will be treated fairly without a union to stand up for them.
The worst way would be to outlaw them because the first amendment of the Constitution guarantees freedom of association.
{Stolen from Wikipedia: [Freedom of assembly, sometimes used interchangeably with the freedom of association, is the individual right to come together and collectively express, promote, pursue and defend common interests. The right to freedom of association is recognized as a human right, a political freedom and a civil liberty.] }
Eliminating all politicians is also known as throwing out the baby with the bath water, better just to get rid of the bath water or bad politicians, keep the baby.
How do you know which ones are bad? Quite often you don’t. Just as you don’t know the replacements will be good. You can research them yourself, listen to what they say, how they act, what they do. Or you can trust some other group to do the same and then you have to research the group to be sure THEY are honest.
You won’t be able to eliminate federal interference as long as people keep voting for it. Politicians are voted in based on promises of bringing home federal dollars, voted out based on failure to bring in federal dollars.
I wish we didn’t but we tend to favor federal control over local control because we can see the local flaws and we can idealize the federal saints.
David who often votes for losers
REGARDING:
“So the status quo is okay.”
I don’t recall saying that.
My main thought is that the cure should actually help and not just change things for the sole sake of changing things. To keep beating the medical analogy to death, remember how doctors once thought illness was caused by bad blood so they bled sick people? They didn’t check to see if it actually helped and we now know they killed quite a few, including George Washington, I think.
I knew of a case where a fellow had a wife with cancer. He knew cancer was treated with radiation and he worked with gamma ray sources in the oil field. He figured he would save his wife by getting her a radiation source by stealing the Cesium 137. He took it home in his pocket. He didn’t know that radiation works by killing and the main thing was to kill the cancer without killing the tissue around it. He killed the tissue around his pocket while carrying it home, lost his leg.
The cure needs to cure, the fix needs to fix.
REGARDING:
“The comparison of teacher anything to doctor or lawyer anything is apples and oranges. It just has no merit and is an invalid one.”
AND
“several of the examples you gave in an earlier post were medical in nature and are irrelevant to the argument.”
of course apples aren’t oranges and oranges aren’t apples but both are fruit. Thus you can look for similarities for comparison. That should apply to all jobs. That’s why I said if you can actually test for the teacher’s contribution or lack of contribution, that is a good test.
I dealt with the idea of doctors because it was brought up and because I figure there are areas of comonality.
Both require education to be effective.
Both can do harm if not done properly.
Both can deal with some people who won’t listen.
Both can be overwhelmed by case load.
Both do best if dealing in specialized cases. (plastic surgeon not doing brain surgery, Calculus teacher not teaching typing–not that they definitely couldn’t but that it would wasteful of talent and resources)
Both are sensitive to charges of incompetence and less effective if those they serve believe it to be so.
Both require hard work.
REGARDING:
“Some of the others are clearly bad parenting and have nothing to do with the school system.”
Which was the point. If they are the reason for performance, good or bad, they don’t reflect the teacher performance, good or bad.
I believe the teachers worry because current tests of their performance DO grade them on what you agree has nothing to do with the school system.
David for accurate testing
So the status quo is okay.
David, several of the examples you gave in an earlier post were medical in nature and are irrelevant to the argument.
Some of the others are clearly bad parenting and have nothing to do with the school system.
The idea that there is just no way to evaluate teachers fairly is just insane to me. Many other professions have evaluation systems. “It won’t work here” seems to be the popular argument. Don’t tell me what won’t work, that’s too easy…tell me what will.
I guess teachers are just the ’sacred cows’ of government and we are just to accept them as-is without being able to evaluate performance or competency? They know best and we are just the dumb masses who are to stand aside? Sorry, not buying it.
What you need is a way to determine that the student learned the material during a certain time-period. I mentioned in an earlier post an entrance and exit exam. Seems relatively simple to me. If a student becomes disruptive or truant, fine; deal with them outside of the classroom and don’t count that against the teacher who is trying to teach students who do want to be there. There’ll always be a need for manual laborers….
Teachers are only held accountable when ‘little Johnny can’t read’ and is passed through the system for one reason or another.
Maybe replacing one set with another set of teachers would tighten the whole system up and raise the bar for qualified, competent teachers.
Of course, eliminating unions, replacing the politicians at the local and state level on school boards, and eliminating the federal interference would go a long way, too.
REGARDING:
“Not against teachers-just incompetent ones.”
So what you need is a method to prove the teacher was the cause of the student’s poor performance or the cause of the student’s good performance.
I’m pretty sure you could sell it for big bucks if you could devise such a test.
As best I can tell, the teachers feel threatened by the attitude that all problems in education are caused by them with no consideration to the attitude and aptitude of the student and parents or work load.
In the absence of objective tests, even if you got rid of one set of teachers, there is no proof you would replace them at all or that the replacements would have better results.
David for perfect tests in a perfect world
The comparison of teacher anything to doctor or lawyer anything is apples and oranges. It just has no merit and is an invalid one.
With a doctor or lawyer, you can vote with your feet and your pocketbook. If they don’t perform, you go somewhere else. They fail. So, in effect, their pay is based on patient outcome.
If a poor-performing teacher is assigned to whatever grade/course, there’s no going anywhere else.
You can fire a politician but has anyone seen the process it takes to fire a teacher? The teacher has tenure and is protected by a union. There’s your union and tenure argument.
Oh, and a coaches pay is most certainly based on their student’s performance-win, stay; lose, gone. Almost any profession is performance based, except government jobs, i.e., teachers.
Doctors and lawyers can’t take money from you with the full force of law for bad service, the school board can-taxes.
There are good teachers and there are bad ones, let’s separate them and get rid of the bad ones so that more good ones can come in.
There must be some kind of grading. Why all the gnashing of teeth when the taxpayer demands some accountability from a government employee?
Not against teachers-just incompetent ones.
REGARDING:
“HOW MANY OF THE STAFF AT YOUR SCHOOL ARE KIN TO EACH OTHER OR GO WAY BACK AS FRIENDS AND FRIENDS OF FRIENDS?”
Interesting question.
I imagine you and I have friends in common. Surely you’ve heard the six degrees of separation concept, everybody is less than six steps from anyone else. Just think if you had a hundred friends and they each had a hundred friends who each had a hundred friends, etc. Assume they each had half in common so each ourteach took in fifty more. One hundred times fifty times fifty times fifty and you get above the total population of the earth by step six.
If you assume more friends, you get there quicker, if you assume no friends, then how do friends exist?
Most people I know are friendly even if not with me. Most people united in a common effort, say education are more likely to favor each other since they are more likely to have a similar goal: education.
Consider the opposite: Would anyone be better off if they didn’t like each other at all?
David who’s kin to everybody if you go back far enough
REGARDING:
“try basing the doctor, lawyer or dentist’s pay on their patient’s outcome.”
If you did that, you would encourage doctors to not treat the hopeless or even those with a fair chance of failure. And the ultimate outcome of all patients is death, whether it happens immediately or after ninty more years. The health of all would suffer.
Of course, you could force every doctor to treat whoever came to him or her, no matter what the ailment or the doctor’s specialty. If you did that, you would have more failures and more people deciding not to go into medicine.
You would be left with very dedicated doctors who were totaly overwhelmed with their case load and the health of all would suffer.
REGARDING:
“Get rid of the teacher’s union AND tenure, and 95% of the public education system’s problems go away immediately.”
Do you really think ninteen our of every twenty problems are caused by tenure and unions?
Do the unions get the students pregnant?
Does tenure lead to children being kept home to baby sit younger siblings while the single mother goes out to start the next child into the world?
Do unions cause ADHD?
Does tenure cause gangs?
Do unions cause bullies?
Does tenure cause mental retardation?
Do unions tell the children, “Don’t take nothing off that teacher?”
Is tenure the reason so many children say, “You can’t larn me nuthin,” and then procede to prove it?
Exactly what problems are unions and tenure causing which so outweigh these factors over which they have no control?
David suspecting unions and tenure may cause less than 80% of the problems
WHEN DID TEACHERS BECOME VILLIANS?
WHEN SOME MEN AND WOMEN WERE HANDED CERTIFICATES THAT SAID “QUALIFIED TEACHER” AND THEY ARE NOT. THE PRINCIPALS KNOW THIS AND I’M SURE THE INDIVISUALS KNOW THIS ALSO.
IT’S JUST THAT AFTER GOING TO SCHOOL FOR SO LONG AND PAYING FOR THIS CERTIFCIATE THEY TOO ARE LEFT WITHOUT ANOTHER CHOICE. SOME ARE SMART ENOUGH TO GET OUT THE FIRST YEAR BUT THE MAJORITY DON’T. THUS THE TEACHER IS THE VILLIAN.
HOW MANY OF THE STAFF AT YOUR SCHOOL ARE KIN TO EACH OTHER OR GO WAY BACK AS FRIENDS AND FRIENDS OF FRIENDS?
I WISH THE PRINCIPALS WOULD STEP UP TO THE PLATE AND LET THEM KNOW.
lets base our new presidents pay and time in office on his performance…………..enough said
Get rid of the teacher’s union AND tenure, and 95% of the public education system’s problems go away immediately.
When did teachers become villians? Why is it that a profession that was once honorable and valued in a community has become an industry that is scrutinized by the government? One word: money. Look closely and you will see textbook companies and test publishers have pushed for this so they can take the money from teachers as they sell a test and the corresponding curriculum at a cost of millions of dollars per state. It’s not about the children. It’s about money. It’s about taking money from a large group of people in giving it to a small group of people.
To AL:
The quote you used from Donald Quinn is an excellent analogy of why basing teacher’s pay on students’ test scores is not fair. We could say the same thing about basing a coach’s salary on whether his/her team wins or goes to state playoffs, or how about even a meteorologist? We could base his/her salary on the accuracy of his/her weather forecasts. This whole idea is ludicrous. There is nothing wrong with having accountability, but when you have competent principals in place, then your teachers will also be competent. if not, the teachers won’t be there. That is the whole point of tenure and professional contract. If we do away with that, the Florida teaching profession will become something we all will regret.
Just one more case of to much goverment getting into everyones business.
You will never see them do pay per performance in our elected officials.
Florida politicians have come up with some really stupid ideas, but this really takes the cake.
I think those politicians are sitting around grateful that the same principal isn’t applied to their job performance. How much debt does Florida have now?
“If a doctor, lawyer, or dentist had 40 people in his office at one time, all of whom had different needs, and some of whom didn’t want to be there and were causing trouble, and the doctor, lawyer, or dentist, without assistance, had to treat them all with professional excellence for nine months, then he might have some conception of the classroom teacher’s job.” ~Donald D. Quinn
try basing the doctor, lawyer or dentist’s pay on their patient’s outcome.