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School Prayer Bill Clears First Hurdle (With Document)
March 18, 2010
A controversial school prayer bill cleared its first hurdle in the House, paving the way for teacher participation in student-sponsored prayer.
The House Pre-K-12 Policy committee voted 10-3 to forward HB 31, which would prohibit school districts from forcing teachers to enter an agreement that says they cannot participate in any religious activities initiated by students, a situation that occurred in Santa Rosa County.
Santa Rosa school officials said that under a consent decree, they have to leave a room or offer a disclaimer that they are not participating if their students bow their head in prayer or engage in some other religious-based activity.
Mickey Lindsey, the football coach at Pace High School in Santa Rosa County, said if his players decide to pray before a game, he must turn his back. If a player gets injured during a game and the parents say a prayer, he can’t pray with them.
Because of the decree, he said, it looks like he is not being supportive of the boys he coaches.
“I completely agree that we shouldn’t force religion on anyone, but we do have rights of our own,” Lindsey told the committee.
Lawmakers have sponsored school prayer bills in the past, but failed to pass them. This week, the House committee offered up new language to the bill that changed the focus from the students to the teachers. However, it does still contain language that prohibits teachers from discouraging students from initiating the delivery of an “inspirational message” at a school event.
Rep. Greg Evers, R-Baker, who is a co-sponsor of the current legislation and has sponsored the bill in the past, said he believes the bill does have a better chance at making it through the legislative process than in past years because of the revamped language.
“It’s not telling anyone that they have to [pray],” he said. “It’s not telling anyone they can’t.”
But some lawmakers and interest groups say there are constitutional issues with the measure. The Anti-Defamation League and American Civil Liberties Union are lined up against the proposal.
An amendment was approved to remove the word “prayer” when describing the inspirational message, but some lawmakers still said they saw problems with the bill.
Rep. Marty Kiar, D-Davie, said the legislation was “blatantly unconstitutional” under the establishment clause, which states that the government cannot establish or prefer one religion. The bill, he said, could be unfair to Jewish or Muslim students who attend school with mostly Christian students who could initiate a prayer or religious message in opposition to those students’ faiths.
Rep. Dwight Bullard, D-Miami, one of the other “no” votes, added that the legislation could also create a scenario where a student could openly attack students who are gay or of a different race, and teachers would be unable to stop that.
“If you know students you understand this, you don’t know what could come out of their mouths unchecked,” Bullard said.
The legislation still has three more committee stops before it could go before the full House. The Senate has not yet taken up its version of the measure, which still includes the original language rather than the teacher-focused language.
Comments
30 Responses to “School Prayer Bill Clears First Hurdle (With Document)”
Darryl,
Regarding JP: I did not respond to JP’s last post for the same reason that I don’t run full speed into a brick wall to prove to myself it’s hard. But, given your admiral attempt, I will provide the reply to his post that I came up with this morning:
It’s a chicken and egg question. Which came first, ignorance or religion?
JP; two counter points on your post: One is evolution is not a religion and is based on evidence, both in the historical record and in scientific studies on-going. It requires no faith, but acceptance of fact. Its facts are not contradictory to each other and all work as a overall system. Unfortunately religion does not have fact on its side so the “faith” has to be part of it. The struggle of religion today is how to separate the parts proven wrong out from the spiritual for those maintaining a strong religious belief. Unfortunately there is much in the Bible, for example, that has been shown to be mythic or parable: creation, world wide flood, the exodus, the wandering in the desert just has no historical or archeological record to support it.
And laws of our nation are based on universal truths that existed prior to the Bible such as don’t kill, don’t steal and treat others as you want to be treated, which are probably all concepts that early man developed that were existential to mankind’s survival. As to our country, our laws are made by man for man, and not religious based, for to do so would bring in a particular religion’s dogma into the system, which the forefathers knew would spell trouble; look at the history of Europe and England and the wars, persecutions and abuses that were wrought in the name of religion. Take for example the ten commandments; only 3 or 4 could be actual laws and they are the ones that were universal. The others are not commands that could be a part of any democratic society’s legal system. Plus which commandments would we refer; the first set or the second?
Actually, athesim and belief in evolution are religions. Take the test by comparing the requirements of atheism, evolution, or belief in a supreme being.
Let me see, all three are based on faith in a theory of truth or actual events one
accepts to be factual. All three accept the concepts set forth in the Bible for living
in coexistance with each other. Many of the criminal and civil laws of our nation are based on Bible teachings. In all three cases all are willing to place their “hereafter” firmly in their faith in what they percive to be true
I believe I have everything to gain and nothing to lose by my faith. Atheist and
evolutionist. on the other hand, have nothing to gain and everything to lose by
what they believe. Yes, I am better off.
Angelicastorm:
Surely the first schools were in Ancient Greece or Egypt. Christians aren’t responsible for all of civilization despite what many of them would have you believe.
Yes, the first schools in our country were within churches. Churches created by monarchies where the King was right up there next to God. Sit down, shut up, and pay attention has been the style ever since, as in church itself. Discussion with knowledgeable moderators or teachers is more compatible with democracy and I’d like to see things change in THAT direction.
FreeSpeacher:
I had the same idea regarding getting together over a coke (I’d prefer tea or coffee).
A meeting place and a moderator are needed and we could have a great local discussion group.
A park on a nice day would be best. Bring your own chairs and coolers with a little extra in the coolers to share. Okay, what the heck, maybe a loaf of bread too. No alcohol. We probably need about 10 or 15 committed to the idea and it could happen.
Sorry… the statement “there are some who are sincere in their faith and there commitment to the Great Commission” should have read ” there are some who are sincere in their faith and their commitment to the Great Commission”…there are probably other spelling and grammatical errors but I type faster than my mind can keep up…lol
Wish we could all get together for a coke…and have some face to face discussion on the subject…not that we would all leave in agreement…but could “disagree without being disagreeable”…I long for the honest discussion on issues like this and would like the chance to discuss Gen. 1&2, the flood, etc…I have missed this since leaving the Univ…maybe we could get the moderator to release our contact info to each other and we could meet together (maybe even once a month) for open and honest discussion.
As far as the state of the church…I dont totally disagree with you, but why group every church in one basket…there are many groups out there for the money (just turn on your tv). However, there are some who are sincere in their faith and there commitment to the Great Commission which commands all believers to go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS…this does take money…money to send those willing to go…and yes, willing to help those new believers build their own churches…I have been blessed to send others, to go myself (paying my own way) and to help build for my Christian Brothers and Sisters…I have also participated in feeding and helping the poor locally…I did not do these things for me (you have never seen my name in the paper or on tv) I did these things because I want to be more like Christ.
As far as the car maker analogy…there are many who make cars that are great on gas, even though they do it for a profit…you have bills and you get paid for what you do, right?
The first schools were actually created in church. During the era of Christ, the males were educated and Bible doctrine was a priority. The females were taught to be good wives, homemakers and mothers. Prayer is essential to happy living in the home as well as in society. To take God and put Him in a box or on the shelf is precisely what is causing the downfall of society and bringing in a generation who are doomed to destructive lifestyles. Never ever leave God out when it is so crucial to include Him. The facts and statistics speak for themselves. Look around you at Youth today…Let us stand for what is right and speak up for God in a way we have never done before.
Growing up, I kept hearing that Jesus would save me from my sins. Over time it became very clear that my sins were not the problem. Who, I used to pray, would save me from Christians?
I never received an answer, I had to go out and do a lot of research, cry a lot of tears and argue with a lot of people.
Now at last I see signs of a new renaissance in our culture. This incredible conditioned schizophrenia we label religion, this mind numbing cognitive dissonance creating disease (read “The
God Virus”) may at last see its days numbered, if we are not afraid to speak out.
JP, I’m not sure which apologist you got the misinformation on evolution but it is really weird and doubly wrong. Evolution is not a religion, there are no worship services, no rituals, no houses of worship for evolution. The attempt to tie a name of the book Origin of The Species to some Biblical time is, I must admit, would be rather humorous if it wasn’t such a part of the destructive nature we are having toward our science studies. This country that claims to be so great in knowledge, technology, and power, is lagging behind in a serious way, especially in the sciences.
I realize for some, evolution erodes certain preconceived notions of earth beginnings, but just as Augustine warned the Catholic Church couldn’t continue to teach things that was being shown as false (at the time it was the order of the universe, where the Church was continuing to promote an Earth centered universe) for those outside of the Church would reject the Church in its entirety if they knew it was teaching things that were false.
JP, stash it. You don’t know the difference between science and religion. You probably also believe atheism is a religion. Have you no conscience, spouting this kind of idiocy? I sincerely hope you are not in a position to influence the young and ignorant. With all due respect, here’s a link for you: http://www.abc.net.au/tv/fora/stories/2010/03/08/2839611.htm
It is strange to me that the courts and ACLU cannot allow any form of “religious”
teaching or rites in tax payer school systems but they allow evolution to be taught
as TRUE science. Fact is evolution is a belief, or religion, just as Christanity is.
Its’ scriptures(truth) comes from their bible, ORIGEN of the SPECIES by Charles
Darwin. Mr. Darwin believed reptile scales “evolved” into bird feathers but he
shunned the death and resurection of Jesus Christ. It is truely a shame Mr.
Darwin never allowed the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth to him.
I’m sure he probably also believed the story of Rumpelstilskin turning straw into
gold.
Thinker, I’ve read several of Bart Ehrman’s books and they are fascinating. Lost Christianities and Misquoted Jesus are both good, but Jesus Interrupted is, I think, the better one for the type of discussions going on in our society between religion, science and public policy. The other book is harder to find, but I’m about half way through it and it is not nearly as easy to read, but it covers the entire Bible and the research and study of the early origins of the Bible and the history of the Jews which is fascinating. If you look for it, I’ve found used hardcover copies are actually cheaper than the paperbacks.
Doug, I’ll try to be brief: no where in the study does evolution say there is no God. It is just the conflict of a literal interpretation of Genesis 1 (or is it Genesis 2’s creation story?) that has a conflict, so none of my points involves a belief in a God. But I do understand some’ people’s fight against evolution for it does take away Genesis Creation story, the world wide flood, and more troubling to some the basis of original sin. But the thing people of faith have to wrestle with is how to resolve the spiritual ideas they obtain about God versus the literal writings of the Bible and trhow some try to make history fit them. I think the extreme negative reaction to evolution is probably the last debate between religion and science before humanity has to resolve what is fact and what is not. People were burned at the stake for saying the Earth was not the center of the universe and that the universe was made up tiny particles like the matter on Earth. It took centuries for science to finally win over the Church’s extreme measures to protect its preconceived notions of the world. Bottom line is there was no world wide flood, for there is no archeological or geological record of it, nor does physics allow for such a drastic event, but the real clue for people who study the Bible is the contradiction within its own pages: there are two flood stories that were attempted to be blended together and they contradict on timing and the number of animals supposedly put on the ark. This type of contradiction also occurs with the creation story where Chapter 1 contradicts Chapter 2 in the order of events.
As to scientist, some may have an agenda, but they have a process to weed out those who allow a personal agenda to interfere with the findings of some research. Scientist must publish their research and findings in peer reviewed journals so other scientist can test and study the information. Many cases have been rejected by other scientist and the claims then become null. Evolution, as an example, is a science that has been tested over and over, and yes there are minor aspects that scientist have gotten wrong and had to correct themselves, but overall the theory has held up. And don’t be misled into the notion that evolution is some kind of religion competing with Christianity, for it is not a religion, and has no agenda. There are no churches of Evolution. Unfortunately, there are a few scientist who’s sole purpose was to get a degree and then speak out against evolution, so it is they who have an agenda. I know Rev. Moon has paid some men to do this very thing. But the fact is over 99% of scientist who study life origins believe in evolution.
Doug,
Religious institutions, to me, are largely huge financial empires built on centuries of a confidence racket based on fear and and empty promise of reward and little substance. Churches have an “edifice complex”. In these multi-million dollar buildings they preach self sacrifice and giving to others while they are busy building more multi-million dollar edifices to promote this scam. The poor remain poor and the money is given “to God” to build more churches. A slight exaggeration but not much.
Naturally you will find people writing to defend this financial security. It is up to us, individually, to discover truth. It reminds me of the car industry where they continue to build gas guzzling SUVs in a world screaming for foreign oil independence and the elimination of fossil fuel consumption. Insanity lives.
And thank you Darryl, that book “Jesus-Interrupted” just published in paperback is worth a read. It’s written by a long-time believer and Bible scholar whose studies brought him to a state of agnosticism. Ignorance and belief are bedfellows.
and why is teachers cannot bow their heads IF THEY WANT TO…but must go along with (and in some states promote) other events that they have moral objections to such as “Gay Day” or “Muslim Awareness Day?”
Appologies to the editor as I know this is not the proper forum, but I must respond.
Darryl…you say, “As to the fact of evolution, all the claims to it being not true are by people who are not life origins scientist who have an agenda.”
Can you apply the same logic to the scientists…Could you say, “As to the existence of a Creator, all the claims to His non-existence are made by people who are not Christians (nor Theologians) and have an agenda.”
Contrary to popular thought, there are many, very educated scientists who believe in God …and many of them studied at the same Universities as the ones who say He doesnt exist. Here is a link http://www.icr.org/aaf/ (and there are other scholarly ones as well) to be explored when you have the time…the articles are written by Medical Doctors, Scientists, Apologeticists and Theologians who affirm a creator…some of the articles are so scientific in nature that I have trouble following them ( which is not a hard thing for me to do, lol).
I hear people say all the time that the Bible is full of contradictions…space will not allow me to respond at length, but if you want to see the other side of the argument simply google “answers to bible contradictions” or “bible contradictions refuted.”
To close, to say (not that you did) that God does not exist is very egotistical…the only way to know for sure would be to know everything.
anydaynow- I’m afraid YOU mised the point entirely. That teacher has the same right to belief, or unbelief as any other citizen reguardless of geography. To limit
a teacher, coach, principal, school board member, janitor, or anyone else the right to pay omage to their God because of their position or location is a violation
of their constitutional rights as a U. S. citizen. A moment for each individial to silently give thanks to God, Jahovah, Jesus, Buda, Allah, or VooDoo Makes no
difference as any religion is EQUALLY protected by law. The constitution limits
the government from setting a single religion that all citizens must belong too. It
has NO power to restrict the practice of ones’ personal belief in any way.
BarrineauParkDad- You are exactly right! It’s just campaign talk.
JP-the issue is not whether people have a right to express their beliefs. It is inappropriate and unconstitutional for a teacher, coach, school principal, etc. to express or promote their personal religious beliefs while working in their capacity as teachers and school officials. Let’s suppose that there was a coach or principal or chorus instructor in your child’s school whose religion of choice was VooDoo, and this teacher spoke around students about the beliefs and practices of the exotic religion, or hung red ribbons and chicken feet at the top of the classroom door, or even prayed VooDoo style in response to a prayer offering by others? See? I guess we could say about our various religions that we might all do unto others as we would have them do unto us and keep our personal religious practices…personal.
AC, I to would like to know what has been proven wrong. The Bible, or Darwin and the atheist? I do believe sience keeps proving the Bible to be correct. The KJV anyway. Some of the others keep taking the blood of christ out as well as the virgin birth.
This is all a bunch of political posturing. The politicians know the courts will strike it down, but look at all the votes It’ll get them come election time. If they were to waste a bunch of time on trivial matters such as funding education, balancing the state budget or attracting new industry and job creation, that wouldn’t be nearly as impressive to the voters. Politicians have learned that if you can get the public hooked on an emotional topic, the serious matters will fade into the background and be ignored.
AC, What things of science have been proven wrong are you referring? If there are some things proven wrong, it was proven wrong by fellow scientist, for that is their process to continue to improve the foundation of knowledge of any field, and this improvement does not occur by lay person or by any religion. If you are referring to evolution, then you are wrong. It is fact, and a theory of science (theory is not a hypothesis in science) and without it biology, and many other sciences do not make sense.
As to the fact of evolution, all the claims to it being not true are by people who are not life origins scientist who have an agenda. Of scientist who study life origins, over 99% accept evolution as fact.
As to the books, you’ve obviously not even read them, so your criticism is superficial. I’ve read the Bible and I’ve read these books, plus many others, and not until anyone reads them can they say they seem accurate or correct, but your argument not accepting any written document of study would leave us floundering in ignorance.
And no where did I mention your religion or right to worship how you want..but on this subject I do have the right to speak up when anyone uses their religious beliefs to promote public policy that is bigoted, destructive or simply wrong, and then I do have a problem with it. The short sightedness and ignorance in birth control, environmental protection (for our own benefit), the diversity of mankind and the ideal of all people being treated equally in the eyes of our government are all things that religions of all stripes have overstepped their boundaries at one time or another in history, and understanding that and learning from it should make all of society a better place.
The current religion of Capitalism within some protestant faiths is truly interesting, and how they say it is divine to seek wealth, when it goes 180 degrees to what is said in the NT.
Yes, Darryl, because if it’s written in a book, it HAS to be true, right? For every “research” literary work, there can be found other “research” literary works that will contradict the other’s research. For every “Sam Harris” there is another lecturer to counter everything Sam Harris says, and offer research and evidence to support his/her claim.
That’s the whole point: It comes down to what every individual believes, not what you want them to believe. And every American has the right to believe what they want and exercize those beliefs. I do not have the right to force you to worship the God that I read about, but neither do you have the right to keep me from worshiping my God just because you read a book that contradicts my book. Can you see the hypocricy?
Scientists are proven wrong everyday, scientific theories that have been “proven” are consistently “disproven”. Just in my reletively brief lifetime, things that I was taught as fact in science and history class, has been proven to be false. Even though those things were supported by research and evidence, it turns out the research and evidence was WRONG! Very learned men and women (much like the authors you referenced) conducted a lot of experimentation, research, and developed hypothesis which they were later able to prove as scientific fact, but they were WRONG!
Please do a Google search for this: “Sam Harris video”. Watch any one of his video recorded talks, listen carefully, ruminate on his enlightening words and you will see that this whole debate is moot. Grow, love and be free. Thanks.
Speaking of the Bible, I recommend two books for those who want to delve into the history and scholarly research of the Bible. These books are fascinating and bring to light some of our misconceptions regarding the Bible, such as the “Left Behind” series of books that are wrong on so many levels.
The Secret Origins of The Bible by Tom Callahan
http://www.amazon.com/Secret-Origins-Bible-Tim-Callahan/dp/0965504794/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268934891&sr=1-1
Jesus Interrupted by Bart Ehrman
http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Interrupted-Revealing-Hidden-Contradictions/dp/0061173940/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268935105&sr=1-1
The last one by Ehrman is really interesting in that it relates what most theologians have known for over a 100 years about the New Testament, but those that go behind a pulpit fail to teach to the congregation.
Very well put, JP!
If Jewish and Muslim students want to pay omage to their God, by all means allow them to do so. That is actually the RIGHT the constitution protects. Not freedom from religion.
If students of “other” beliefs allow their “feelings hurt” or “feel out of place”, then they should learn not to keep their feelings on their shoulders. You cannot “hurt
someones feelings” or make them “feel out of place” without them giving you
permission or authority to do so. Besides Christians have feelings as well and
I see few liberal lawyers and judges that seem to care about how their rights are
considered. Remember, in a Democratic-Republic ALL citizens have EQUAL
protection under the constitution.
I do not advocate teaching or promoting a certain belief or faith over another in
public schools as it is the parents job to instill their values and faith in their own
children. Sadly, many parents fail in this area. However, a person of true faith
in his or her God will eminate from their very being, words and actions. Their
faith would be as obvious as their race, or gender. If my 10 year old wants to
bow his head and thank God for his blessings it will take more than the ACLU,
faculty, school board, and the Supreme Court to stop him. To limit one from
practicing his faith simply because of the geographical location he is in would be
the same as putting white and colored signs back on public water fountains and
bathrooms.
Remember, the Bill of Rights protects ones RIGHT to his faith and says nothing
about WHERE he or she would be limited to exercise it.
GOD BLESS AMERICA
People wonder what is wrong with kids today ! Every citizen that chooses to pray should be able too. I feel sorry for the kids that are being raised never knowing the Bible .