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Carver/Century K-8 School To Close; Students To Bratt, Ernest Ward
January 9, 2009
It appears the end is near for Carver/Century K-8 School; Escambia School Superintendent Malcolm Thomas will recommend the closure of the school at the January 20 school board meeting. The closure would be effective at the end of this school year.
NorthEscambia.com sat down with Escambia School Superintendent Malcolm Thomas Thursday for a one hour, one-on-one exclusive interview. There were just two people in the room, Thomas and our reporter. He explained his decision to recommend closure of Carver/Century in great detail. It’s a story and exclusive details that you will only see here on NorthEscambia.com.
When Thomas took office in November, the closing on Carver/Century was on the school board’s agenda for later that month, placed there by outgoing Superintendent Jim Paul.
“I pulled it from the agenda. I said that I was going to pause the decision, and look at the car plant. I had not done my homework,” Thomas said, referring to the announcement that Century could become home to an electric vehicle manufacturing facility that might employ up to 1,100 people.
Thomas spent his Christmas vacation “working through a process” that involved a great deal of research and number crunching to reach his decision. Before Thursday morning, only four people, high ranking administrators in the school system, knew that decision.
He first broke the news of his decision to close the school to the faculty and staff at the school early Thursday morning. Thomas stood before them and broke the news.
“I wanted our employees to hear it from me,” he said. “If you are going to be the leader, you’ve got to be courageous enough to look people in the face when you have a decision like this.”
The actual recommendation that Thomas will make at the January 20 board meeting will to be adopted new school attendance zones, essentially putting all of the Carver/Century students in the Bratt or Ernest Ward zones. The plan was commissioned by the school board in August. The plan would be adopted by the board at the February 17 meeting.
Thomas is optimistic that the board will easily approve his plan, especially after legislative budget cuts of $16 million earlier this year and another $6 million more expected to be cut this legislative session. He is focused on making sure taxpayer money is spent wisely, a proper education for the students and the protection of employees jobs, he said.
“How do I let Carver/Century go another year?” he asked. “The million dollars I am losing here would cost the district 15 to 20 teachers or 30 to 50 support personnel.”
The district’s human resources staff would visit Carver/Century after the closure approval to work with the staff in employment transfers. Thomas said some teachers would move on to Bratt and Ernest Ward. “It would be to the benefit of the students for some of their teachers to go with them.”
He said he could not guarantee everyone’s job, not necessarily because of the closure but because of budget cutbacks across the board in the district. Budget cutbacks, he said, will lead to a series of cutback announcements over the next few weeks, possibly including the closure of another West Pensacola area school to be announced next week. Thomas said those associated with that school really have no idea that they will be targeted for closure. Those cutbacks could also lead to layoffs across the district.
The superintendent’s day in Century continued with a meeting with community leaders and the Century Blue Ribbon Committee that was formed by the town council to save the school. He had asked Mayor Freddie McCall to invite the participants to a meeting, but McCall was not informed of the exact purpose of the meeting. After that meeting, Thomas sat down with NorthEscambia.com for our exclusive interview.
At our meeting, Thomas spelled out his reasoning for closing the school in very complete detail. He provided a packet of information with numbers and facts to back up his decision. .You can read the Thomas documentation on Carver/Century by clicking here and downloading the pdf file (It might be helpful as you read the rest of the article to print the pdf, or open it in a new window.)
The $250,000 gamble
Current expenditures would require Carver/Century to have at least 330 students to bring revenue losses under $250,000.
“If this school had 330, it would still lose a quarter million dollars a year. That was my loss limit. That’s a lot of money, but that’s the number I was willing to spend. I do understand this is a unique situation with the geography, economics and the history of the school.”
Where are the kids?
Of the 473 students in the Carver/Century attendance zone, there were only 210 enrolled at the school on December 18 . That number has since increased to 212. That means that just 44 percent of the students in the Carver/Century zone attend the school; a full 56 percent attend school elsewhere.
At the elementary level, there were 307 children in the Carver/Century zone, but only 126 attended the school. There were 130 enrolled at the charter Byrneville Elementary, and 32 at Bratt Elementary. A handful of others were home schooled or at other schools.
At the middle school level, there were 166 students living in Carver/Century zone. Only 84 were at the school. There were 68 at Ernest Ward Middle School, and the rest were home schooled or at other schools in the county. At the seventh grade level, more students in the Carver/Century district attend Ernest Ward than go to Carver/Century.
“I have no authority to restrict a parent’s choice to send their children elsewhere,” Thomas said. “They are making choices for their children.” Federal law allows students in the Carver/Century district to send their children to other schools due to Carver/Century’s failure to meet “AYP” — adequate yearly progress.
A long ride
A transportation analysis by Thomas shows that the most distant student to Carver/Century travels 11.4 miles one way to school each day. The student most distant to Ernest Ward travels 14.9 miles one way to school each day.
With the school closure and consolidation, the average ride for a Carver/Century student to Bratt Elementary will be 10.9 miles. The average current Carver/Century student transferred to Ernest Ward would travel 15.5 miles per day.
Those are numbers currently exceeded by other schools in the district. There are students that travel 15.3 miles one way to attend Escambia High School.
But what about the car plant jobs?
Up to 1,100 jobs might be possible in Century with an electric car plant that is considering locating in the town. For this portion of his decision, Thomas made a lot of assumptions, all of which were heavily weighted in favor of Century. He determined that if the car plant employed 550 people, that would likely mean about 118 new students for Carver/Century.
“I gave Carver the benefit of the doubt on all these numbers, and assumed that every single employee of the car plant would live in the Carver/Century zone,” he said. “But at 118, you are still not going to get me to my loss limit of 330 students.”
The age of buildings
Thomas also outlined the age of the building on each campus.
Three buildings at Carver/Century were built in 1958, and three were constructed in 2003. The school received roofing and windows valued at $455,000 in 2004, and $3,081,614 in renovations in 2002.
Buildings at Bratt were constructed in 1980, 1988, 2000, 2001 and a $2 million media center in 2007. There were $632,255 in hurricane repairs in 2005, and $974,188 in hurricane repairs in 2006. There is a $1.2 million renovation project planned for Bratt’s main building to be complete this summer.
Buildings at Ernest Ward were constructed in 1945, 1963, 1955, 1972, 1975, 1977, 1978 and 1992.
Dollars and cents
The financial losses at Carver/Century have been large for several years. Over the last seven years, almost $5 million more has been spent on education at Carver/Century than has been received in funding.
“Show me another business in Century that can lose $1 million a year and continue to operate,” Thomas said. “This is where I start thinking about the taxpayers. When I overspend here at Carver, I am hurting the other schools in the county and hurting the other students.”
Pictured above: Carver/Century Principal Jeff Garthwaite (L) and Escambia School Superintendent Malcolm Thomas in the lobby of the school Thursday afternoon. NorthEscambia.com photo, click to enlarge.
Comments
40 Responses to “Carver/Century K-8 School To Close; Students To Bratt, Ernest Ward”
Just a thought… Why not close both schools (ewms and cms) and re-build across from NHS. I believe the district owns that land. Then all 3 schools would be together and all would have rather new buildings. They could SALE ( not rent) the other two buildings and use some of that money for the new building. It would also compromise on the long bus ride that cms will have to make. I know this will never happen but I like the idea anyways
I have attended both carver and now attending ewms…… ewms and carver should be joined just not at ernest ward theres barley enough room as it is in ewms,if you find another locatoin to put the conjoined schools in then it wouldnt be a problem the choice the adults are making dosent effect them it effects us so be careful on the desicion you make!!! Please for the students future.
To ‘ME’, if they close EWMS down and bus their students to Century, they should still be able to receive the same education at Carver/Century since you would have the same faculty and administration and since you said it wouldn’t matter if your child were taught sitting under a tree, then it really shoudn’t matter about closing Ernest Ward, because if it’s not enough room to accomodate, there are plenty of trees!!! And another thing, those numbers that Mr. Thomas are throwing out about the number of elementary and middle school students in the Century area, they include children who have always gone to other schools, even though they were in the district to attend the Century schools, (when it was Century Elementary, Carver Middle and Centruy High), their parents always chose to send them to Bratt and Ernest Ward. So those numbers are not as accurate as he would have you believe!!!
You should not close Carver/Century k-8 because we love this school.
Okay, I understand that people are fired up about this, I really do…and I wasn’t going to say anything until I read the comments about students “learning nothing” at Carver. Carver has GREAT teachers that really care about their students and spend a lot of their time and their own money to give these kids at school what a lot of them don’t get at home. I think that everyone needs to stop bashing the teachers, it isn’t all up to the teachers…if it isn’t getting reinforced at home, especially at this level of education, then it doesn’t matter how great of a teacher you are. To say that Ernest Ward has better teachers than Carver is absurd.
Do not close Carver/Century!!!
Eliminate the five(5) Assistant Superintendent , and especially the one (1) Associate Superintendent positions.
I believe their combined Salaries, Perks, Retirement, etc, and that of their support Secretaries and Clerks is approximately $$$ONE MILLION DOLLARS!
When running for office, Mr. Thomas promised to eliminate excessive Supervisory Personnel! Has he a short memory???
I do not agree with sticking kids in a portable. The heating and A/C units are normally sub-par compared to actual school buildings. Plus, during bad weather children have to come in to the main building to attend class, which is disruptive to the kids. Portables should be a last resort answer in an emergency situation, not the solution to eliminating a perfectly sound building. Just an after-thought….. Wouldn’t the electric bill for the portables be higher since the buildings can not be nearly as insulated as a building with a foundation?!?.
I have never attended a school without a portable.EWMS is using them now and a few more wouldn’t matter. Personally, I would rather my child sit under a tree with great teachers and an environment set for learning than have them in a “good” building and learn nothing.
It’s amazing how complacent we have all become with whatever our local government decides to impose on us. Portables are ok because they were ok 20 years ago? Come on! It’s ok that our tax dollars are funding out of state students that return little to nothing to the local school system? I am the last one that wants a child harmed or denied an opportunity, but we should abide by the rules as they are, it’s just the right thing to do. With the amount of money the school system is wasting, and the students that shouldn’t be here, there shouldn’t be any portables. We should expect more out of our government.
Look at page 4 of Mr. Thomas’s information. I found it interesting that Carver didn’t actually earn a “B” last year on the FCAT… The “B” that was “given” to Carver was the district’s FCAT average. The real numbers indicate that Carver actually earned a “D.” The public should not have been misled by the “B” when the grades were made public last summer and the “B” needs to be marked with an asterisk and explanation.
I don’t see what all the fuss is about…I went to EWHS when it was 6th – 12th grade. We were crowded but made it just fine because we had to …we had portables…nothing wrong with that. I actuall liked going to the portables. Everyone is quick to jump to conclusions about what it is or isn’t going to do for the kids but just stop and think back to when you were in school. I am sure most of you complaining had to go out to a portable classroom, had a long bus ride and/or had a crowded school but you made it because you HAD TO!!!! We have the best schools in the county, so be glad that they aren’t shutting them down and be happy for the kids coming from Century/Carver that are going to be getting a better education and have more opportunities then they would if they kept the school open….BESIDES…ISN’T it all for the CHILDREN….not the parents to sit and complain and teach that to our children. They learn what they see and hear!!!!!
What exactly is the big issue with a portable building? Taxpayer, you speak of such as if it is the worst possible thing in the world for a child to have to walk outside to a portable building. I graduated from EWHS in 91 and had to take classes in portables because even then, the school was full. I never had a problem with having to go to a ‘portable’ building. Quite the opposite actually…I, as well as most of my classmates, enjoyed the break to walk outdoors to a class. And you know, if it was raining, we put our books over our heads and ran! I promise you, none of us ever melted because we might have gotten a little bit wet!
So please, don’t make it sound as if a portable building is a substandard classroom situation…they weren’t then and I don’t believe they would be today. I have a child that will be at EWMS next year and if she has to take a class or two in a portable building, then so be it…I don’t believe for a minute that it will affect her grades to have to walk outdoors to a portable building.
Oh, and I totally agree with Chris about the “long” bus ride complaint…that’s just a laugh!
“ME”
Ernestward is busting at the seams….They will have to add portables…you can count on that…Great for the Students!!! stick them anywhere? Take them away from a good sound School Building, then stick them all in portables…..And “WHO” are we representing…not the Kids!
“JAY”…not even you can believe that?…look at past news paper…I think he stated something to the effect “I’m not sure closing the School is the answer”?…But I do believe closing Schools is the answer when they don’t support the Students as other schools…But closing Century with all of the New Construction, thus sending Students to that Run-Down Ernestward Site doesn’t figure$$$$$$$$$$
Here we go again, there is no room for these students because of Alabama students. Wake up Florida parents, Mr Thomas not only is not going to help Carver folks, but he is going to turn his head on the “illegal student” problem at Bratt and Ernest Ward which will cause severe overcrowding in these schools. You better urge your principals to do the right thing.
With all due respect, you can’t keep a school open simply because it’s the “life of the community”. In all actuality, the community should be the “life of the school”. This is simply not the case with Carver Century as we see from the attendance habits of the residents in the Carver Century zone.
I admire and appreciate Mr. Thomas for doing his homework, educating himself on the numbers, exploring options and presenting information to back his decision in such a professional manner. He has also acted in a compassionate manner by meeting with some of the citizens of the community who have worked so hard to see the school kept open. You really can’t, logically, criticize the way Mr. Thomas has handled this situation.
I agree, it’s a sad day for the town of Century. However, we must be careful not to blame one man for the problems he inherited from the previous administration.
It is my prayer that whatever the FINAL decision is in this situation that it will benefit the precious children of this community. May the children be provided with an excellent education and many chances for productive, responsible lives! Education is our ticket to a better Century, FL in the future. If the children will get a better, more cost-efficient education somewhere else, why would we deny them that opportunity? We need to examine our motives, fellow citizens! Who are we working FOR in this situation, ourselves or the children?
One more point-
In America, we pride ourselves in the diversity of our citizens. Will these students get a better taste of diversity in other schools? I suppose that’s a matter of opinion and I won’t go into my own opinion of that!
Chris, they added a wing on to the elementary school and made it a “new” k-8 school.
Taxpayer#2, EWMS is bigger than Carver, I’d like to see 500 students squeezed into that little wing at Carver.I’m not sure of it’s capacity but from the looks of it I don’t think it’s possible.However, as crowded as EWMS is I’m sure they could find room for the 80 or so middle school students from Carver to attend.
Malcolm Thomas is full of it if he thinks people are falling for the “saving money” excuse. Since Carver/Century is in much better condition than EWMS, why not close Ernest Ward down and bus their students to Century. It makes the most sense, and if they do decide to build a new school somewhere down the road, the old Century High School site would be perfect!!!
The town of Century is failing as a community. I’m sure the job forecast for that community is very low with probably low expected growth. If you live in the town and work in the town then still make $40,000+ a year i want to know what you do for a living. I’m sure those jobs are rare & dont come open very often. I’m sure some don’t even have internet in their homes to voice their opinion about what goes on in Century. My point is the relation to the poor & poverty stricken people in the town to the attitudes of parents passed down to the children. Once you combine many children who are in the same situation, bad things can happen. Yes the school did improve from an F to a B but then still failed the FCAT? Whats up with that?
Somebody mentioned the long bus rides, I’m a 2001 graduate so its been a few years but it hasn’t been that long ago. For going to elementary school we rode the bus for a solid hour and the school was about 1.75 miles from the house. As we got older we eventually rode bikes to school. So for those complaining about a 35 minute bus ride… i enjoy laughing at your complaints.
The economy has got to play a factor in the closing of the school. I’m sure the school board budget is being slaughtered. Why not close the school with bad grades in a community where some of the students go to other schools. I would expect the same to happen to EWMS if their grades were so poor.
Oh and where is this new middle school in Century that someone mentioned? I must be out of the loop! Please fill me in.
century girl, who would want to move in to this communtiy with the school we have? No one who cares about their child’s education, that’s who. You can argue all you want about this town needing a school but the bottom line is the children will benefit from this. I know because I have had one child go through the Century Elementary and Carver Middle School system and one that has gone through Byrneville and is now in EWMS.Trust me there is a difference, a big one.
Mr. Molino, I know who the county commissioner is and You missed the point. You know if one believes in a cause…you stand up and fight for it. Regardless of whether or not the county commission can do anything about it…our commissioner has an opinion, and could voice support for his constituents regardless if he could stop the process. I am not in the school system so am unfamiliar with the grading process other than everyone was proud the school came up from an F to a B… cut out the drug taking personal attacks which have nothing to do with this discussion… I am very alert and aware that we DO NOT NEED to lose our school. When a school is failing, you work harder to do what you need to do to help them pass and in time excell. Throwing your hands up and just moving them somewhere else does not solve the problem it only scrambles the statistics.
Century girl are you takin’ some of the prescription drugs from the last drug bust in Century? Kevin White is the county commissioner. He does not have anything to do with the school at all. Period.
They came up from an F to a B because they improved. But most of the kids still FAILED the FCAT. Scores went from a 1 to a 2. That’s improving. Yeah! But a 2 is still failing!
Where is our county commissioner on this? isn’t his name, Kevin White? I remember seeing him once about four years ago up our way. Where is our Century town council? Are they just going to sit by and do nothing? Wake up folks, the newly elected Esc county superintendent is robbing us of our school! Do SOMETHING! We can’t lose our school. Who would want to move to a community with NO school? What business would want to come to a town..with NO school? Why should our children be bussed to Bratt or Molino when they have worked so hard to come up from a F to a B school? Is that the reward they get? WOW…Malcolm should really be proud. Can’t you hear him or Garthwaite tell the kids…great job on the fcat…you successfully brought your grade up from a F to a B..so just for that we are going to move you to Bratt or maybe Molino. Way to go. Commissioner White, City Council we urge you…please do something to stop this terrible robbery and assault on our children.
This was from a previous article concerning our wonderful Mr. Thomas and his wishy-washy statements…….
“We have to pause a minute on closing Carver/Century,” Thomas said. “It is not that I am in opposition to closing that school, but I don’t want to close it now to find out that we just have to reopen it next year.”
Project Green Leaf could the school’s saving grace. The electric car manufacturing facility with up to 1,100 jobs proposed for Century could drastically change the future of Carver/Century.
“I want specific answers, not just the (Project Green Leaf) sales pitch before making a decision. I want the facts,” Thomas said. “That does not mean that it is over. It just means we are pressing the pause button on closing the school.”
But once the district has exercised “due diligence” and explored Carver/Century and Project Green Leaf’s future, the district will move forward. That may mean closing the school, Thomas said, and it may not. He said he is not opposed to closing and consolidating schools if warranted. In fact, he said a handful of smaller Pensacola area schools could be on the chopping block very soon.”
Does Mr. Thomas still drive a car paid for by the tax-payers (including gas, ins, tag, registration, etc) and still carry a cell phone paid for by… the tax payers, and I wonder how many business dinners he has had lately that have been paid for by…. you guessed it… the tax payers.
Sounds to me that other cuts could be made that would have NO impact on children! I think everyone should flood the school boards e-mails and phones concerning their lack of concern for the children. It is not just Century that gets slighted—- it is schools across or county!
I appreciate the fact that the School District has to cut their budget; however, they are not cutting administrative overhead at the district offices in Pensacola, but they are making the least politically risky cuts they can. Century has few votes, and less voice than any other part of the county.
The School District does not have an individual budget on each school – zero-based school budgets; thus Mr. Thomas cannot tell what the actual cost of operating Carver Century is. No one has marketed or promoted Carver Century to build the student population. Earnest Ward is full. It is going to cost extra to bus students anywhere outside of Century. The teachers cannot be fired under union rules, they still have to be paid where ever they are, and the state constitution mandates class sizes; so when you add students at EWMS or Bratt, you have to add teachers. I don’t see the savings. Is this a purely political move to punish Century for the standing up to the All-For-One scam?
Is there a move on to just shut down Century? Well, the South-End “leadership” has shut down the County Health Clinic in Century, The Drivers License office in Century, and the Fire Department is on the block along with our school. Is the ECAT bus next? This is a good example of being the redheaded step-child . . . I am sure there will be more to come as the budget cuts deepen too. The less voice we have, the more we get smacked and kicked. I don’t like it at all!
I am saddened however not surprized about the announcement of the closing of Carver-Century. Talk about flip-flop politics…”I was for it before I was against it…”.
Malcolm Thomas obviously only gave lip service to pacify the people of Century and pull some votes then once elected he pulls the curtain on our school. A community, an incorporated city, needs to have its school. The classrooms are already full at Bratt Elementary and EWMS. Extensive renovations were done only a few years ago. Does anyone think ahead anymore when spending taxpayers money? When the school is closed, the teachers and personnel will be relocated so how much money will really be saved? Then add the additional transportation expense and the oh what about the impact of a community losing its school. There is no rhyme or reason to this. Just close it. Why not move some of the other schools to Carver Century. Its facility is in far better shape than EWMS…what about that Mr. Thomas. Or maybe try hiring a real principle for Carver-Century that isn’t a wolf in sheep’s clothing. One whose interest is that of the children not himself. Why not put more GOOD teachers at the Century school instead of some that the superintendent couldn’t really get rid of so they just make it difficult for them by making them drive along way, to a poor school with many underpriviledged kids just to have a job. The kids did their part and came up from a F to a B….shouldn’t you Malcolm Thomas do your part in trying to be part of the solution and make things better instead of just closing the school. Yes, the easier maybe softer way, but oh what is best for the kids? Oh, should the school superintendent even consider them? Mmmmmm maybe you are in the wrong business Mr. Thomas.
Wasn’t there a comment made by Mr. Thomas that he would hold off recommending any closure, until he had completely assessed the situation??? I could be wrong about this… but if not, is he really telling us that during this short time he has been able to view everything completely? It is sad that you can not trust anyone in gov. to do anything that is in the best interest of the citizens…. and no, I do not think closing schools is in the best interest. You are essentially closing the town of Century, when you take away their schools. I am disappointed to say the least.
well if the schools are in too bad of shape then why not tear them down instead of spending all that money to make fancy community centers out of
So sad about Carver closing and children being bused to another school. Several months ago, there were many posts on northescambia.com about the volume of Alabama students in Florida schools. There seems to be more “movement” from Mr. Thomas towards closing Carver than removing Alabama students from Florida schools. Seems like the latter issue should have been satisfactorily addressed first. I’m questioning if priorities are in proper order for the management of North Escambia schools. My point being if tax dollars were not spent on Alabama students in Florida schools, would the county have additional funding to keep Carver open?
Why not build a new school in century, and lets see how many people in Walnut
Hill start complaining about closing EWMS!!!!!
It’s not a surprise that Thomas recommends closing Carver/Century. I’m just surprised it took him this long. I guess he had to put up the front. People are right by saying that there will be a new school built, not only at Ernest Ward but also a new elementary school for that one in Bratt. That’s why Carver/Century was put on the chopping block, who cares about our children in our community. I read one reader say a new middle school would be best for all the children well we must remember that Carver/Century does have a new middle school and we don’t need a new one thank you.
Well I graduated from EWHS and now its a middle school. I think the school is in a local spot for all areas. Just because soom of Century students come over does not mean they make up our school. I think the only reason there scores are better this year is because they thought , if they brought up , there scores then no one would close it.
We live in Molino and my child has to ride the bus over 30 thirty minutes to EWMS. I don’t see that as a good reason not to close Century-Carver. We are in need of a newer facility though. EWMS is not in the best shape!
Ernest Ward has that many students because Century children attend there instead of Carver. My child attends EWMS instead of Carver and I would not have it any other way. I think Chris Maloney has the right idea, a nice new middle school would be the best for all children concerned.
I think that the people of century should be able to have a school in there town. We dont have much in this little town, and if the school closes why should we pay taxes. leave our school open! The students have worked hard last year to bring the school up from a “F” school to a “B” school. all the other middle schools are full already EWMs has almost 450 students attending. where will our students go. They should be able to attend a school in there home town. they should not have to ride a bus for 35min. to 1 hour. KEEP CARVER OPEN IT IS THE LIFE OF CENTURY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111
Seeing how NHS is one of the nicest facilities in the county maybe they will build a nice middle school for north escambia in a few years.
After Carver/Century is closed, how long do you think it will be before they will decide to build a new school at Ernest Ward? Has anyone noticed the condition of that school? If closing Carver is being done to save money, then why are you closing the school with the better structure. I’ll give them two years before they will be ready to build a new school.
“Taxpayer,” the closing of this school is no suprise to anyone except to those who refused to acknowledge the writing on the wall. Mr. Thomas never promised to keep Carver/Century open if he was elected.
“Malcolm Thomas will announce later today that he is closing Carver/Century K-8 School.”
Didn’t take long after the Elections were over to make this call. The “KEY” here is after the Elections! Fooled again,
This is the very reason we need to have a Appointed Superintendent, thus they are able to perform their job and be truthful up front with the taxpayers without the political pressure or pay backs! call it what you wish, it’s still the same.
Carry on citizens